Christopher MacLellan 5/20/25

(This interview has been edited and condensed for length)

Selma:  Christopher, can you give us your caregiver story?

Christopher:  My caregiving story… I always like to start out by saying, I got my care genes from my four older sisters. I watched them raise 25 kids amongst them. That's why I'm called the f u, the “favorite uncle”. Now what were you guys saying there?

Selma/Zack: (laughing)

Christopher:  I always like to give them kudos because I did get my care gene from them.  My reallife caregiving story started with my now deceased partner, Richard Schiffer, when he was diagnosed with, esophageal cancer in 2011. And that really had propelled me into the formal, if that's even appropriate to say, formal family caregiver role. Richard and I were the Mutt and Jeff combination.  He was a foot shorter than me. He was an agnostic Jew, and I am a former Catholic seminarian. So, it was like two people who were so different yet came together, in love, care, and commitment. And that diagnosis of esophageal cancer was really my role as a family caregiver learning the ropes to care for somebody that you had an emotional attachment to. I was fortunate in one sense that I come from a nonprofit background, a social worker background, a, nonordained minister background.  I kind of understood the referral process and getting into care avenues. But what the challenge for me was, in my caregiving experience with Richard, was learning the balance, the emotional component of care. You know, it is one thing to sit behind a desk and take a phone call for emergency assistance, which we did quite often at Catholic charities. But when 5:00 came, those problems were left at the desk. For family caregivers, as you know, I know we're going to get into working family caregivers too, that, those issues are different. The emotional component that comes in with caregiving and how to balance. And that is that was really part of the challenge for me, and that is another reason why now eleven years past Richard's life transition that I've stayed in it as an advocate because I  recognize the importance of sharing your story because the best information and referral usually, if not always, comes from one caregiver to another.

Selma:  Well, thank you for sharing that part of your story.  I had the pleasure of  listening to you talk at a mastermind session and something you said just for some reason stuck in my head and I wrote it down and I've had it on this little piece of paper for the longest, hoping that I'd get the opportunity to ask you about it. So, I want to read you this quote and I would love to hear what you have to say.  You said “men need to step out of the closet and tell their caregiver stories.” That is a powerful statement. Can you talk a little more about that?

Christopher:  Sure. I've been involved in, you know, in the caregiving space since 2010, 2011.  And in the social worker aspect since the mid-eighties, and especially as it relates to caregiving,  I often found myself in support groups where I was the only male. And, it kind of makes sense in one in one area because care in a lot of ways, I more identified with women. But I've always felt comfortable because of my four sisters, obviously. 

But I also identify now as an LGBT senior. And I use that soliloquy, I guess, in coming out of the closet for men, all men to share their caregiving story because it's cathartic. In sharing your story, whether it's just one person who hears it, you being able to get it out of you, there's a sense of relief that you know that you're not the only one. And I think for men especially, one of the many reasons men don't self-identify as caregiving because of workplace issues. You know, I got to be that tough macho man, and I can't go to my boss and say, I got to take my mother to a doctor's appointment.  Well, you know what? Step up. Step up. Claim your role as a family caregiver because you're going to find more support in all areas of your life, whether it's at work or the bowling alley or at a baseball game because there's a caregiver in every neighborhood and every boardroom. And how do we know that unless we feel comfortable in telling our stories?  So, men, come out of the closet. Not the orientation closet. That's a whole different story, but the whole caregiving closet because you're going to find comfort and peace and resources that you had no idea were available to you.

Zack:  Let's talk a little bit more about the working caregiver experience. You do have some tremendous lived experience. But then social work, my goodness. What a role. Very thankless and incredible job. Thank you for that.  But let's talk about around 2010, 2011, and sorry for your loss with your partner, Richard.  What was the work situation, and how did you deal with that as you really got into the caregiver role?

Christopher:  Well, I've been fortunate in the majority of my professional career where I've worked for mission driven organizations that understood, the social aspect of work. And so, for me, it was natural to just be able to tell, whoever I was working for at the time what the issues were. When Richard got sick, we were living in Saint Louis. He wanted to move to Saint Louis where my family was, and I had just taken a job with a service for senior living, and it was probably one of the best jobs I'd ever had. But Richard wanted to come back to Florida where his home was, to finish out his life.  It was a no brainer for me to say yes, but with that, it was easy for me to go to my employer and say, hey, I must do this for him. And I found a job in Florida that was in social work, that was mission driven, that understood. But in my role as a senior care adviser, as a social worker, I came across so many different folks who were working in the secular, for profit world who just were beside themselves about what to do with their spouse or their partner. How do they how do I balance this work caregiving life?

And that was at the same time when the reporters from the South Florida Sun Sentinel asked to follow us, in our caregiving journey. So, a lot of these things coincided with the mission to kind of give back to the community by documenting our story and talking openly about it. But being not so much in the forefront about what it was like for us, but letting people know that it was okay to go to your boss. It's okay to talk about these issues at work because that's where you're going to find the support. And that's how I ended up at Gonzaga University doing a master's degree in leadership and communication and putting systems together about how employers can better serve their employees in a caregiving role.  I mean, this is this is going back now ten, twelve years, and there was very little data involved available now, not like there is today. I'd like to kind of to think that we do things because of our experience knowing that people are going to come after us, and how can we help those folks in their role. And for me, it was just natural to share our story so that other people can learn from it, especially in the workplace.

Zack:  Can you share maybe what was the most difficult part about the caregiver journey for you?

Christopher:  I don't want to give the impression that it was easy. There were a variety of issues along the way. Two and three hours a night of sleep, getting up and going to work the next morning, trying to explain being late. All those, balancing work and caregiving, finances, all those things that caregiving plays a role in.  We dealt with that on a regular basis. I think the difference for me was I had supervisors that understood.   They understood because, how do I say this politely, they were in a mission driven organization that whether or not they knew it or not, they really focused on servant leadership. That is my mission for the last ten, eleven years is the servant leadership with corporate America and how that is beneficial to not only the bottom line because the social worker in me never thought about the bottom line. I always thought about taking care of the person. But when you can put a financial number to how you treat an employee especially in the realm of caregiving, then decision makers start looking at thiscommon issue a little bit differently. And that's what I've tried to do on that side of the on the of the ledger. Actually, that just came to me, that side of the ledger.

Selma:  Continuing with that theme, you talked about being in a leadership position and your experience as a family caregiver. How do you think or can you give us a an example of how your personal experience as a caregiver shaped your decision making as a leader in the organization? Would your decision have been different had you not had the personal caregiving experience?

Christopher:  I don't think I've ever been asked that before, Selma.  I go back to a couple of times where I ventured into the for profit sector and how unhappy I was in those roles as a manager, as a leader.   I think to take it a step farther everybody's caregiving experience and comfort zone is different. I think you must really play to your strengths and know what you're comfortable with. Boundaries become blurred.  That often happens between the caregiver and the care partner.  I'm using the generic term there. But for me the difficulty was anticipating the loss. There's two very common aspects in caregiving.  There's a beginning and there's an end. And in most cases, we're not prepared for either one of these life changing events, and those life changing events impact everything about your life, your work life, your free time, your friends. In the midst of caregiving change and then caregiving ends, and then you're not a caregiver anymore. And so those transitions is what makes it hard because especially if you've never experienced it before, what are you going to do? You can't tap into something you don't know anything about.  You're learning on the go. And that's why I always come back to that, telling your story,  how cathartic that is.

Zack:  I know personally working with you, Christopher, that you you really have a lot of knowledge about how employers could step up, and you've already made some references to that. But maybe if you could help our readers here, get a better understanding of what can they do as employers to do a better job of supporting working caregivers?

Christopher:  One thing that comes right off the top of my head is having an open door policy to be able to come in and let have an employee be able to talk about what their current situation is at home.  Having that knowing you have that comfort zone to go in, and talk to a supervisor about what is going on, it just changes if you're working for a good company, it changes positively the relationship. And here's kind of an example. I'm just kinda laughing at this because it's something that I experienced. All of a sudden you're late two or three days a week, and then, you're calling in sick. Your whole work pattern changes. Well, if the employer doesn't know what is making those changes happen. If you don't go in and tell them, then they're going to think, well, this person's just not interested in their job. They're looking for another job. But if you go in and tell them, I'm struggling with this at home. My mom's sick.  Nine times out of 10, you know what that HR person's going to say? I'm doing the same thing. My spouse has cancer. There's not an environment where you feel comfortable enough to be able to share this, and I'm going to go back to something earlier. That's why, especially the men need to come out of the closet and  talk about it at work. You know, what happens? Well there's a support group that develops. There's more camaraderie that develops because they're sharing life experience.  It can't be,  this is my social worker coming back, it can't be twenty four seven work, work, work because we all have a personal life. It's the successful companies, the ones that incorporate, life in general into their productivity of their employers employees. And then that ledger goes up, which is what they're looking for in one sense.

Zack:  What did your leaders do to make you feel like it was a good decision for me to share what I did? Are there any behavior descriptors you would use generally speaking?

Christopher:  Well, I think there's two things. How comfortable you feel as a as an employee. Who on the management team can you reach out to and feel comfortable talking? You usually pick those signs up by being in staff meetings. What are the words that are that are being said?

Instead of “I need you to do this tomorrow”, maybe the boss is more “what can we do to help you meet that deadline?”  It's those traits in the way people communicate that usually tell a person who's approachable and who's not. And I think if you tune into that, then, you can find that that person on the management team, whether or not it's your direct report or not, that you can feel comfortable sharing this. And the other thing is if you're not working for an organization that is servant leadership minded or compassionate minded, then you might want think about where your best fit is. I was fortunate.  We had some problems at work, but, I I've always leaned towards trying to work for an organization that really fell in line with my own personal beliefs. And quite frankly, as a gay person, especially going back in the eighties and nineties, you know, I was very selective about where I was going to work. That was my personal choice. I mean, things were a little bit different up until a few months ago, but again, it comes back to that comfort zone and being able to recognize who are the folks in leadership that are approachable.

Selma:  Thank you for that. Do you have, Chris, any, tips for employees or advice for employees in terms of at what point in that journey do they step forward and have a conversation with the manager about what they're dealing with? Do they wait until they start having problems? They're late for work, taking time off. And then the other part of that question is, do you have any tips about what are the words that they use in that conversation? 

Christopher:  I'm a big proponent of getting things out in the open, immediately. That way, there's no pages unturned. You know, the employer knows, my mother was just diagnosed with cancer, and she lives alone, and she's moving.  Whatever the scenario is, let the employer know, ASAP as soon as you know.

What to say to the employer? I think it's a matter of just telling them exactly how you feel.  I'm concerned that I'm not going to be able to meet this deadline. I know that I'm going to need some time off. I understand there's going to be an emergency. We know this as former family caregivers because if there's one thing common about caregiving is there's always an emergency. I think Zach's probably heard me say this before.  I've not met one person that's had caregiving on their bucket list of things to do in life. It's an unplanned event.   Oftentimes, it's because of a unfortunate accident or untimely diagnosis, and suddenly you're thrust into this. I  I think by being upfront with your employer, and telling your employer you're going to,  especially if you're already been a good employee, you're going to get the work done. It may not just be on the same schedule that you were used to.  If I might have to work a couple of hours later, or I might have to work at home one day. If these discussions are happening upfront before there's five or six tardies, three or four days missed, then, you know, it's going to be an easier conversation because by the time all those things have happened, you're already an emotional wreck.

Selma:  I just remember a conversation we had with a previous guest who said, why keep it a secret? Because the employer is going to find out anyway. They're going to find out.  You're going to be taking time off. You're going to be missing deadlines.

Christopher:  Well, they're going to find out. You know, there is a pattern.  You know,  I always like to say we don't have secrets. Secrets have us.   It's true. I knew that as a gay person. Everybody comes out at their own comfort zone, but, you know, we don't have secrets. Secrets have us. And the sooner that you can release your secret by telling your story, because everybody has a story, the better you're going to feel. And if the employer doesn't understand… two things:  One, they are probably not worth the company working for, and two, they've never been a caregiver. They don't get it. There are no strangers when it comes to caregiving.

The journeys, the stories might be a little bit different, but everybody understands where you're going, where you've been, and where you're going to end up.  

Zack:  Can you tell us a little bit about the Whole Care Network? Tell us a little bit about what you're working on and how people can find you.

Christopher:  Well, the Whole Care Network is, in its I don't know, eighth, ninth, tenth year. The passion project of mine has just went over 1,400,000 downloads of our podcast.  We've got a big surprising update coming towards, National Family Caregivers Month, but you can find us at wholecarenetwork.com. And, my project that I'm working on spending the most of my time on is our My Green Folder film project. We're real close, and we have a production company that, that is interested in the project. We're in the process right now of, updating the script and some details, and that's my final caregiving role for Richard is to get this film project off the ground in his memory.   

Zack and Selma:  This has been great. Thank you so much, Christopher.